Comment to: Do Bullies have low self esteem?

[Rasmus Nielsen]

Bullying has nothing to do with self esteem problems!

Bullying is a well known symptom of a variety of genetic defects such
as ODD, and CD, just to mention a few. It is associated with hormonal
disorders causing behavioral and intellectual deficiencies, and in
males ofen also exagerated physiologic growth. (That's why male
bullies are often, in common terms, "big lads").

Obviously therefor; therapy and talk won't help. - What the "bully"
needs is medical treatment!

However, it is also important that parents of "bullies" be made aware
not to blame themselves! You didn't do anything wrong for your child
to turn out like this. Your child simply has a fysiological desease,
like eg. asthma or diabetes. And it can be treated in similar ways,
with the right medication.



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[David Kogan]

Post by Rasmus Nielsen
Bullying has nothing to do with self esteem problems!
Bullying is a well known symptom of a variety of genetic defects such
as ODD, and CD, just to mention a few. It is associated with hormonal
disorders causing behavioral and intellectual deficiencies, and in
males ofen also exagerated physiologic growth. (That's why male
bullies are often, in common terms, "big lads").
Obviously therefor; therapy and talk won't help. - What the "bully"
needs is medical treatment!
However, it is also important that parents of "bullies" be made aware
not to blame themselves! You didn't do anything wrong for your child
to turn out like this. Your child simply has a fysiological desease,
like eg. asthma or diabetes. And it can be treated in similar ways,
with the right medication.
'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`''`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`
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Bulling happens with intellectuals, as well. What do you recommend for
treatment of people who use their intellect to degrade and humiliate others,
lobotomies? Instead of recommending castration for children who act-out, why
not tell the wimps to toughen up? There is always going to someone who wants
to be on top. The root of the problem is how badly do they want it, and what
are the willing to do to get it? You are willing to use drug "therapies" to be
in control? You psychos (I'm sorry I meant "psych workers") are permanently
altering a human beings sexual development, by using medications on small
children in order to control their behaviors and guide their development. This
was not a requirement for a proper functioning society seventy-years ago. I am
sure the if you talked to a Nazi in the 1920s, you would have gotten a
superficially rational response concerning eugenics. There is only one problem
with leveling the playing field. The ones that do the leveling, watch the game
from box seats, way up in the stands and can not see the trenches they left
behind. Who died and left you God, God?

Reasoning behind this "toughen up" treatment:
http://www.metaspec.org/onto/index.html



'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`''`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`
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[Rasmus Nielsen]

Allow me to answer replies from different fora at once

Post by David Kogan
Bulling happens with intellectuals, as well. What do you recommend for
treatment of people who use their intellect to degrade and humiliate others,
lobotomies? Instead of recommending castration for children who act-out, why
not tell the wimps to toughen up? There is always going to someone who wants
to be on top. The root of the problem is how badly do they want it, and what
are the willing to do to get it? You are willing to use drug "therapies" to be
in control? You psychos (I'm sorry I meant "psych workers") are permanently
altering a human beings sexual development, by using medications on small
children in order to control their behaviors and guide their development. This
was not a requirement for a proper functioning society seventy-years ago. I am
sure the if you talked to a Nazi in the 1920s, you would have gotten a
superficially rational response concerning eugenics. There is only one problem
with leveling the playing field. The ones that do the leveling, watch the game
from box seats, way up in the stands and can not see the trenches they left
behind. Who died and left you God, God?
http://www.metaspec.org/onto/index.html

I am well aware of the so called "hunter/farmer", or "herd", etc.
evolutionary theories which attempt to take the "bullies"' delusions
of superiority on face value by making them out to be "the natural
hunter/warrior class". I believe it's mostly popular among the science
journalists of a certain kind of television channels. I suppose,
following the logic of this theory, that people such as the columbine
highscool shooters would then have to be explained away as "naturally
limiting the hunter-population by occationally killing off the
surplus" or something like that?! Although I strongly doubt that the
defenders of this theory would take kindly to such an interpretation
since the sole purpose of the theory seems to be to justify the bully
behaviour and superiority complex.

- I can't possibly address all the problems with this very amusing
theory, so let me just throw in a few comments on it:

Firstly: Although the "bully" himself is seldom capable of
comprehending other kinds of strength than intimidation and sheer
muscle, this does NOT mean that these qualities are actually
particularly optimal for primitive hunting, close combat, or surviving
in the wild in general. In fact agility and intelligence (contrary to
the hollywood action stereotypes) would be much better survival
skills. In so many words: The big, strong hollywood "hunter/warrior"
stereotype would in fact not stand much of a chance in the natural
world.

Secondly: As I have pointed out (in
***@posting.google.com); the same hormonal
weaknesses which cause the intellectual, behavioral, and growth
abnormalities, also makes the "bully" more vulnerable to deceases than
other individuals. I referred then to one documented case of a
tuberculoses outbreak among Savannah baboons in the mid 80's which
selectively killed off the "bully" individuals. - Which ought to be a
pretty obvious hint with a sledgehammer that the bully's notions of
biologic superiority does in fact not harmonize particualrly well with
biological reality.

And for the record: I never recommended "castration for children who
act-out" - Which I find is a downright revolting notion!!

Post by David Kogan

I think we should kill the bullies let god sort em out. Or train

the

Post by David Kogan

victims in self defense take them away from school teach them to

fight

Post by David Kogan

effectively with their hands and let those kids deal with the

bullies.

Post by David Kogan

We may have a lot of bullies going out on stretchers but it will

stop

Post by David Kogan

because we made it stop. Or maybe the kids who started the

columbine

Post by David Kogan

massacre may have a point though I don't want them to.

That's one of the most awful suggestions I've ever heard!!!

As someone who has been on the recieving end and seen how ineffectual the
"authorities" were in stopping it, I'm on Katz' side here. What stopped
the bullying for me was putting one of the little SOBs in the hospital.
After that they left me alone.

...

Post by David Kogan

So there's absolutely no need for such outrageous steps as you
suggest! Killing people because they have a weakness or desease has

no

Post by David Kogan

place in any civilized society!

If that "civilized society" can find another way to make them stop harming
others then by all means it should be used. Ours has not. The only thing
a bully understands is fear. Teach him to fear you and he'll leave you
alone.

My whole point is that there ARE ways - namely medical treatment -
that will work. - The bully need not understand how or why it works,
or even accept it. As long as it works!

Post by David Kogan

And teachers and
parents should be aware that talk and counceling won't help

improving

Post by David Kogan

the bully's behavior. Bullying is a physiological desease, like eg.
asthma or diabetes. And it can be treated in similar ways.

That's your opinion. Do those treatments stop the bullying instantly? If
not then what do you do with the bully until the treatment takes effect?
Let him keep hurting people?

If he is endangering others (or himself for that matter), then there
are LAWS by which he can be committed by force. Civilized society is
based on respect for the laws. But what

you are suggesting is flushing the laws down the toilet and having a
lynching in stead. - If someone is being physically abusive and
endangering you or your loved ones, then take it to the police and the
courts, and let it be decided by juridic and psychiatric experts what
kind of medical or other treatment should be measured out on that
person.

If you in stead choose to pick up a gun and take the law in your own
hands, not only are YOU committing a crime for which YOU can be
punished by law, but you stoop to his level and undermine that
civilized society and the laws it rest upon, which should be your
childrens protection against his kind in the first place.

Post by David Kogan

That's one of the most awful suggestions I've ever heard!!!

It's one of the best suggestions I've ever heard!!!
Does the world lose anything if some kid shoots a bully's face off?

YES! It loses civilized behaviour as a means of conflict resolution.



'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`''`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`
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Before submitting an article, please read the guidelines which are posted
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Submissions are acknowledged automatically.

[David Kogan]

Post by Rasmus Nielsen
Allow me to answer replies from different fora at once

Post by David Kogan
Bulling happens with intellectuals, as well. What do you recommend for
treatment of people who use their intellect to degrade and humiliate others,
lobotomies? Instead of recommending castration for children who act-out, why
not tell the wimps to toughen up? There is always going to someone who wants
to be on top. The root of the problem is how badly do they want it, and what
are the willing to do to get it? You are willing to use drug "therapies" to be
in control? You psychos (I'm sorry I meant "psych workers") are permanently
altering a human beings sexual development, by using medications on small
children in order to control their behaviors and guide their development. This
was not a requirement for a proper functioning society seventy-years ago. I am
sure the if you talked to a Nazi in the 1920s, you would have gotten a
superficially rational response concerning eugenics. There is only one problem
with leveling the playing field. The ones that do the leveling, watch the game
from box seats, way up in the stands and can not see the trenches they left
behind. Who died and left you God, God?
http://www.metaspec.org/onto/index.html

I am well aware of the so called "hunter/farmer", or "herd", etc.
evolutionary theories which attempt to take the "bullies"' delusions
of superiority on face value by making them out to be "the natural
hunter/warrior class". I believe it's mostly popular among the science
journalists of a certain kind of television channels. I suppose,
following the logic of this theory, that people such as the columbine
highscool shooters would then have to be explained away as "naturally
limiting the hunter-population by occationally killing off the
surplus" or something like that?! Although I strongly doubt that the
defenders of this theory would take kindly to such an interpretation
since the sole purpose of the theory seems to be to justify the bully
behaviour and superiority complex.
- I can't possibly address all the problems with this very amusing
Firstly: Although the "bully" himself is seldom capable of
comprehending other kinds of strength than intimidation and sheer
muscle, this does NOT mean that these qualities are actually
particularly optimal for primitive hunting, close combat, or surviving
in the wild in general. In fact agility and intelligence (contrary to
the hollywood action stereotypes) would be much better survival
skills. In so many words: The big, strong hollywood "hunter/warrior"
stereotype would in fact not stand much of a chance in the natural
world.

So, what does this have to do with anything I was saying?

Post by Rasmus Nielsen
Secondly: As I have pointed out (in
weaknesses which cause the intellectual, behavioral, and growth
abnormalities, also makes the "bully" more vulnerable to deceases than
other individuals. I referred then to one documented case of a
tuberculoses outbreak among Savannah baboons in the mid 80's which
selectively killed off the "bully" individuals. - Which ought to be a
pretty obvious hint with a sledgehammer that the bully's notions of
biologic superiority does in fact not harmonize particualrly well with
biological reality.

So? This is completely non-sequitur. I do not understand why you are telling
me this. It has nothing to do with what we were discussing.

Post by Rasmus Nielsen
And for the record: I never recommended "castration for children who
act-out" - Which I find is a downright revolting notion!!

I beg-to-differ. Can you not see what you are doing by lowering aggression in
other men, before they become men, whom are more aggressive than yourself? You
have become the bully. If someone commits a crime, they pay the price. You
said nothing about this "treatment" being a "treatment" for convicted felons.
You are talking about adjust the developmental hormones in children, in your
original posting. In you words: "Your child simply has a physiological
disease. And it can be treated in similar ways, with the right medication."
(dk: corrected spelling) Exactly what hormones are you planning on adjusting
in these children? Whatever hormones you are talking about, you will be
retarding their sexual development. Chemical or physical castration, it does
not matter; you are playing God. You have no idea how a child will turn out
for sure. Messing around with hormone levels in children, because they may end
up committing crimes due to "genetic defects," is eugenics. It is that simple.
It did not work for the Nazis and it will not work for you.



'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`''`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`
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Before submitting an article, please read the guidelines which are posted
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Submissions are acknowledged automatically.

[Rasmus Nielsen]

Post by Rasmus Nielsen
Allow me to answer replies from different fora at once

...Instead of recommending castration for children who act-out,
why not tell the wimps to toughen up? There is always going to
someone who wants to be on top. The root of the problem is how
badly do they want it, and what are the willing to do to get
it?...
...There is only one problem with leveling the playing field.
The ones that do the leveling, watch the game from box seats, way
up in the stands and can not see the trenches they left behind.
Who died and left you God, God?
...

I am well aware of the so called "hunter/farmer", or "herd",
etc. evolutionary theories which attempt to take the "bullies"'
delusions of superiority on face value by making them out to be
"the natural hunter/warrior class".

Who said anything about a "naturla hunter/warrior class"?..

I was commenting a post on a different forum than the one your post is
in (which I thought I made clear from line 1). Both to save time and
work (so I don't have to write different comments in different fora),
but also because I thought it was of general interest. I didn't intend
it to be perceived as a comment to anything in this forum. 'Just
thought it was of interest in the context of the general topic of this
subject.

Effective hunters and warriors are team players...

I totally agree. I was just pointing out that the hollywood'ish
stereotypical notion (brought forth in a different discussion) on
which that theory is based is naive.

...The bully is the guy who gets them to hunt for him--he's often
called a "chief" or a "priest".

I disagree. The bully is the guy who - in a 'natural' condition would
soon have his throat cut in his sleep by the oter tribe members, long
before he could achieve any kind of status like that.

...Think Bruce Lee couldn't have been a bully if he
wanted to?

The question is not if he could have been if he wanted to. The
question is if he actually turned out to be.

Once again: All this has to do with the comments I made to David
Kogan's post. - I didn't mean to imply that any of these notions were
your opinion. And I appologize if I didn't make that sufficiently
clear.

Please provide evidence that all bullies demonstrate these hormonal
weaknesses. One experiment is not proof.

Well: One way of telling that eg. Conduct Disorder (CD) is inherited
are comparative studies of large numbers of monozygotic twin pairs who
has been separated at birth. Twin studies indicate a strong genetic
influence. Current thinking is that traits like impulsivity or
difficult temperament are inherited, and likely lead to conduct
problems. (For more info see for instance:
http://ibgwww.colorado.edu/cadd/a_drug/commnews2002.pdf (page 2))

The linkage between genetics and hormones is pretty straight foreward,
as the information coded directly in "genes" are for a great part
simply "recipies" for the different hormones. For example children
with aggressive behavioral disorders show out to have particularly low
levels of the stress hormone cortisol (see
http://216.117.159.91/crimetimes/00b/w00bp4.htm)

Please provide evidence that medical treatment short of institutionalization
and heavy doses of Haldol is effective in causing bullies to stop bullying.

One of the most studied antipsychotics for treating child aggression,
particularly in patients with low intellectual functioning or mental
retardation, is Risperidone. For example (Quoting
http://www.currentpsychiatry.com/2004_04/0404_aggression.asp):

"In a 6-week, double-blind, placebo-controlled trial, 118 children
ages 5 to 12 with severely disruptive behavior and IQs of 36 to 84
were given low-dose risperidone... Risperidone reduced conduct
problems significantly more than placebo... Risperidone also reduced
aggression in children with normal intelligence in one small study."

Post by Rasmus Nielsen
If he is endangering others (or himself for that matter), then there
are LAWS by which he can be committed by force. Civilized society is
based on respect for the laws.

Uh huh. And of course the cops are going to arrest some 9 year old for
beating up a 7 year old.

In the case of minors obviously the criminal law enforcement isn't the
most relevant social institution to draw on. Still, also children who
are violent and abusive can be subject to treatment, if need be by
force. Only, that's rather initiated by the social authorities rather
than the law enforcement ones.

Have you ever been the subject of bullying and tried to get "society"
to do something about it? Everything they do just makes the bully mad
at you, so when they're not looking he nails you double-hard.

Admitted; the local authorities can be difficult to dance with. Still,
anyone can go to the court. Collect evidence for what's going on (for
instance videorecordings, photos of whatever injuries the bully may
have inflicted), and if the local office won't listen you and other
parents can take it to court.

There is a difference between the use of force in self defense and a
lynching...

Yes, absolutely: Self defence is when you defend yourself from an
ONGOING assault by COMPARABLE means of force: Fending off a fist with
a fist, for instance, fits that definition quite nicely. - But when
for example Katz suggest to "kill the bullies let god sort em out." I
somehow don't get the impression that that's what she had in mind.

...The passengers on _one_ of the planes involved in 9/11
"flushed the laws down the toilet and had a lynching instead."

NO! They defended others from an ONGOING assault by COMPARABLE means.
- Unlike the one who just snap one day, long after the original
assault(s) has taken place, and goes on a killing spree.

And while the the mills of justice grind the SOB is still kicking your kid's
ass and stealing his lunch money.

I'm not saying there is anything wrong with teaching the victimized
kid to defend himself - for instance by letting him take Karate,
Jujitzu or TaeKwonDo lessons. It's just that that's a here-and-now
solution (which might, for that matter, be a good solution): My
concern was how to deal with the bully in the long run - as an
alternative to sliding his throat (NOT that I'm asserting that this
was your suggestion).

Please provide evidence that "civilized behavior as a means of conflict
resolution" is effective in causing bullies to stop bullying.

Above, I already argued for the effectiveness of medical treatment
(when provided), law enforcement (when enforced), and even (lawful)
means of self defence. - The real question, as I see it, is: Are you
willing to sacrifice civilized behaviour as such in order to make
someone behave civilized? - That would appear to me to be an admission
of failiure all together, on society's behalf.

---

"David Kogan" <***@nomail.com> wrote in message news:<SPR1040611195653-31013

@psychcentral.com>...

...

Post by Rasmus Nielsen
I am well aware of the so called "hunter/farmer", or "herd", etc.
evolutionary theories which attempt to take the "bullies"' delusions
of superiority on face value by making them out to be "the natural
hunter/warrior class"...

So, what does this have to do with anything I was saying?

It seems pretty obvious to me that the general viewpoint you seem to
be advocating is based on some theoretical construct in the general
area of what I mentioned. So I found it relevant to address that basis
as such: When discussing a topic from mutually contradictory
standpoints, these basic assumptions must be made clear, or we will be
talking at cross purposes.

Post by Rasmus Nielsen
Secondly: As I have pointed out (in
weaknesses which cause the intellectual, behavioral, and growth
abnormalities, also makes the "bully" more vulnerable to deceases than
other individuals. I referred then to one documented case of a
tuberculoses outbreak among Savannah baboons in the mid 80's which
selectively killed off the "bully" individuals. - Which ought to be a
pretty obvious hint with a sledgehammer that the bully's notions of
biologic superiority does in fact not harmonize particualrly well with
biological reality.

So? This is completely non-sequitur...

The whole herd evolutionary theory is non sequitur all together! - As
for the quote: I was merely pointing out a couple of its weaknesses.

...I do not understand why you are telling me this. It has nothing to do
with what we were discussing.

Again: I was pointing out the fundamental fallabilities (in my
opinion; though you'll disagree, obviously) of the very basis of your
arguments: Bullying does not serve a biological purpose at all.

Post by Rasmus Nielsen
And for the record: I never recommended "castration for children who
act-out" - Which I find is a downright revolting notion!!

I beg-to-differ...
You are talking about adjust the developmental hormones in children, in your
original posting...
...Exactly what hormones are you planning on adjusting
in these children? Whatever hormones you are talking about, you will be
retarding their sexual development. Chemical or physical castration, it does
not matter; you are playing God. You have no idea how a child will turn out
for sure...

Actually what I had in mind (although I may not have been that
specific about it, as I thought that ought to be self evident) was
mainly treatment of SYMPTOMS - rather than, as you seem to have
interpreted me, some kind of fundamental hormonal "adjustment".

And obviously those medications which is known to have the fewest and
least marked side effects - wether they may be sexual or otherwise -
should at any time be preferred.

As for the more hypothetical argument that there MAY be unknown long
term side effects: Well of course there is always at least some
possibility. But strictly speaking the same could then be argued about
any other kind of medical treatment as well. And I don't suppose you'd
want to abolish all medical treatments as such, simply because they
COULD have sexually impairing side effects that we don't know about?



'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`''`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`
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